Episode 002 - Nutrition with Dr. Kristen Marvin
In the March 6th, 2024 episode of the PHW Podcast, Dr. Kristen Marvin delves into the pivotal role of nutrition in health and wellness. She discusses the challenges of modern food production, including the demonization of real food groups and the presence of chemicals like Glyphosate.
Dr. Marvin explores clinical observations such as gut health and autoimmune conditions while addressing fad diets and the struggle to make lasting lifestyle changes. She offers solutions like connecting with farmers, educating children on healthy eating, and emphasizing gradual transitions toward healthier choices.
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Episode Summary
The episode concludes with a call to shift our mindset from restrictive eating to fueling our bodies for optimal living. This episode is essential listening for anyone looking to understand the foundation of the Nutrition pillar in PHW's 5 Pillars of Health.
Transcript for this episode will be available soon.
Episode Transcript
Auto-generated from the episode audio — may contain minor transcription errors.
Teach them to learn those connections for themselves, right? So that they develop that confidence and self trust, that they can make those decisions on their own. And are they going to get it perfect? No. Do we get it perfect as adults? No, no. But I think, you know, that's how to try to create and teach this, like, healthy relationship. So that's what we do with our kids. We're just constantly — you know, well, I not constantly, but like any meal time, or you know, when we have — when we go to birthday parties, it's like, yes, my kids eat the cake and ice cream, right? But you better believe that if they're complaining about a symptom or something later on, you're going to tie it back. We're — we're going to potentially teach and make connections so that they can learn.
That — all right, well, welcome to PHW podcast. This is episode two. I am extremely excited to, uh, have this conversation with Dr. Kristen Marvin. Um, we've been good friends, known each other for a long time. Uh, you are a naturopathic doctor at our clinic, Prairie Health and Wellness, and um, I want you to talk a little bit about, uh, for those people who don't know what a naturopathic doctor is, I'd love for you to just give me kind of a brief overview of why you decided — because if I remember, you sort of had a dividing path in your — in your history. Were you sort of had decide, were you going to go the alpath path, or were you going to go naturopathic path? Tell me why you decided to go, yeah, the naturopathic path.
Well, first of all, I'm very excited to be here. I think, you know, you and I get to have these fun conversations all the time, daily almost, anyway, so it's going to be kind of fun to like get it on film. Um, but yeah, you're right, I really did, uh, kind of have this — you know, I came to this fork in the road of, you know, I was on track, I was, you know, studying to take the MCAT. I worked in a, you know, more traditional or conventional primary care office, um, which was an amazing experience. I mean, I learned so much from those people, those docs, nurses, everybody that I worked with. Um, but I also really learned along the way of how I didn't want to do things, or didn't want to practice medicine, or maybe not necessarily even that, but just like this could be different.
And um, I think a big part of that was also, um, maybe many people are familiar with the a very well-known Riordan Clinic here in Wichita, was actually my parents who became patients there, because I grew up in the late 80s and early 90s, and we were very much a standard American, um, family as far as food and diet goes. We had soda in the house, we ate fast food, lots of process, you know, it was cereal for breakfast type of thing. Um, and then my parents sought out Riordan Clinic for their own health purposes, and um, learned a ton and had great experience. And uh, I should say my very generous parents, uh, offered my sister and I to go have that experience there, okay, as a patient. And I was an adult when that happened, I was a young adult, I had just finished undergrad, so I think I was about 22.
Yeah, and so um, it was, I was a patient of a medical doctor, an MD there, Dr. Rebecca Kirby, and um, it was really through working with her — I mean, she was the one who was like, hey, have you ever heard of naturopathic medicine? Cause of course I had, kind of shared with her like here's kind of what my path looks like. Now yeah, um, and so yeah, I, you know, had this amazing experience and learned that there was another way to do things, um, and that was really the turning point for me to say, okay, yeah, it's not this form of medicine, it's naturopathic medicine that, you know, is really what I'm after.
And so I think, you know, if I was trying to explain it to somebody, um, you know, I might even pose it as a question of, like, if you're looking for a doctor who's going to help you understand your body as a whole, like understand and learn, like, how these complex systems work together, and to support how they really work, instead just focusing on diagnosing a problem, and here's a pill or a surgery or whatever, you know, for it. It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's — it's funny, I, when I started, you know, coming from the alpath, uh, side of things, um, it was really my wife who encouraged me to start learning about the nutritional side of medicine.
Yeah, and um, so I started going to conferences, one of the first conferences I went to was in Orlando, Florida, and I met a naturopath there. And um, um, you know, as I sat next to them during these conferences, I realized, like, they — you guys, I was really impressed with the breadth of knowledge that you all have in the biochemical, and — and — and there was so many things that I think I had, I had learned in medical school or touched on, that I feel like naturopaths really spent a lot of time going through those, those pathways, and understanding how the human body detoxifies, how we methylate, how we, um, utilize nutrients. And um, so from — for every, uh, conference I went to after that, I always tried to sit next to a smart naturopath, because if I had questions, I could always lean over and talk to them.
So yeah, it's — it's funny, I think we've, you know, we've taken — I've taken the path where I've really now tried to learn more of a naturopathic approach, um, you know, and try to think of the human body as a whole, whereas you guys, that's — that's, you're just built from the ground, your foundational training. Yeah, right, yeah, that's pretty cool. Um, so you started off, uh, how many years ago at Prairie Health and Wellness? Uh, 2014. I was — I wasn't quite right at the beginning when you guys first opened, day one, but I definitely weaseled my way in.
You know, remember, you applied as a medical assistant, you were — you were my medical assistant. I had just graduated from med school, and um, the school that I went to, where — my graduation date had fallen, um, had just passed that second round of boards for the year, so I had to wait about four, is fiveish, maybe months at most, to take my board exams, and I was like, what am I going to do during this time? And you just happened to post a job listing, and I reached out, and I was like, I know I'm super overqualified for this position, but please have me.
I think you might go down as the best spend that we've had in HR, you definitely got the best bang for your buck on that. Well, definitely got the best bang for a buck. Um, no, I've been — I've been, it's been a privilege to be able to practice beside you, we're getting ready to celebrate our 10th anniversary. Amazing, it's crazy how fast it's gone. Um, I think, you know, I'm thinking back to the early days in the clinic, where we really — we did, we were talking today in our — in our meeting, our group meeting with the providers, about how we — we're getting back to having our lecture series, and inviting people into the space where we — where we practice.
And um, and and some of the things we — we talked, we talked extensively about food, which is what we're — we're talking about today. So what are the nutritional challenges that you feel like that not only our patients are facing, but people who may not even be thinking, you know? I think the kind of patient we have coming to Prairie Health and Wellness, they're already interested in their health, and they're looking for a different solution. But what — what are some of the the nutritional challenges you see a lot of people facing today?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I definitely think there's a few — I would say, like, the more common ones that I see come up, um, when I'm working with patients, would just be they feel overwhelmed. You know, there's a lot of information out there, which, you know, I'm still going to be always mostly a fan of, because I think that's, you know, one of the best ways people can empower themselves is to seek out that information and learn. Um, but in the same token, there's a lot out there, and it's like, well, how do you know what to trust, what do you think, you know, what's best for me, I mean, is that what's best for everybody else. So they feel overwhelmed for that reason, but I think another reason they feel overwhelmed is, um, because of the, you know, American kind of hustle culture that we live in.
Um, you know, everybody has a gazillion and one things going on, and you know, I think one of the bigger problems is that when we look at something as important and foundational as nutrition — I mean, we have to eat to live. Yeah, I know a lot of people live to eat, but we have to eat to live. And so if it's that important, you know, how can we not give it the time and effort that it deserves, right? And so I think that's another huge issue for people, is that they're too busy. Yeah, that often takes a back burner, because we have grocery stores, and you know, restaurants and fast food restaurants and gas stations on every corner.
Well, gas stations now practically have restaurants in them. I mean, you know, growing up, gas stations were places where you got oil filters, you know, an air filter, um, you know, it was more of a service station, and now you walk in a Quick Trip and it's a full menu of food. I mean, you got the roller grill there, you've got Casey's pizza, which everybody raves about. Um, so — so yeah, I think convenience is — is probably driving that.
Why do you think, um, you know, when we — we talk a lot about nutrition science, why do you think we haven't, um, why — why do you think the science hasn't caught up to say, hey, this isn't the way we should be eating, or why do we struggle so much to find good information about nutrition? Well, I think — I mean technically we do have science to show that, you know, eating these ultra high processed foods is damaging to our health, so I think the evidence is there. But I don't think, you know, we certainly don't have our government, for one, supporting us to try to eat well.
I mean, you know, we've all heard stories and see, like, the food pyramid — so there — there's problems with the food pyramid, that's not a scientific based document. That, uh, you're saying grains shouldn't be the basis of the — well, I think, you know, we have to — we have to admit that there are problems in research, right? Um, and I'm not saying that we should, like, chuck it all to the curb, but I think we have to be aware that, you know, there is bias, um, you have to know when you're looking at a study who funded this study.
Um, that's a great point. I — I don't know if you remember this, but there — there was a study that had come out, and it was talking about, um, non-celiac gluten sensitivity, and in this — this research was actually one that a few years prior had published the paper, you know, kind of pointing out that, hey, there's these people that don't have celiac disease, they struggle with gluten still, and here's what — what he called it. Well, then he published almost what a retraction to that paper, made the front page of JAMA. Yeah, and I remember, because that was a time when you and I were seeing a lot of patients who — we recognized, you don't have the markers for celiac, we've done a colonoscopy in an EGD, we don't see microvilli being blunted, but you definitely can't handle wheat.
And so when this study came out and said just the opposite of what you and I had experienced, I thought to myself, how can this be? Yeah, well, you dig into the paper and you find out, okay, here's this company that funded it. And so I remember, at that time it was an Australian conglomerate, and I thought, what Australian conglomerate, why have they funded this? And so I went and looked them up, and of course you look at their Wikipedia page and you find that, oh, they have all these, like, 11 subsidiaries. Well, one of the subsidiaries was the largest wheat producer in Australia, and Australia is the size of the United States.
Yeah, so — and that was not anywhere in the publication, they didn't start the paragraph by saying, by the way, the wheat industry has funded this paper. So — so I think you're right, I think the — the science is out there, but you — you always — you need to learn to read it and say, okay, who's paying for it, right? Right, and — and like you said, where — where's the bias in this, because that was a huge bias that wasn't revealed, and again, front page of arguably the top medical journal in the world. Yeah, and it took me 10 minutes to find out that this is probably a sham.
And there's a lot of other problems too, too, where again, I think probably a big part of it is, you know, driving, um, or, like, what's being driven behind is, who is funding it, like, what are the intentions, what are these desired outcomes, sometimes. Um, and unfortunately there's evidence of people even changing the goalposts, even if, like, during the research it's starting to show something that maybe doesn't support their hypothesis, and instead of, like, what good science would be would be to just admit that and be like, darn, that doesn't fit my hypothesis. We've got scientists moving the goalpost.
I feel like you're talking about Ancel Keys back in the 60s, that's one, there's some more recent ones, but maybe we don't have to get into that totally. Um, but I think you know that also, I think kind of ties back, even, or could even be a good segue into another problem that I think a lot of people face, and that's, you know, I think gluten or wheat is a perfect example of this, where — right, you know, when people go to the store to purchase a food, or even if they're just thinking about, like, I'm buying this food, this is what I think it is — it's not, you know, when you read the nutrition facts label on these packages, you know, your bread, in your mind should be, hey, this is just wheat, you know, so flour, wheat flour, salt and water — is not that. If anything, those are maybe even arguably like the smallest ingredients.
And so, you know, and again, you know, we could go down rabbit holes as to why that is, you know, it's obviously people can make arguments about, you know, well, that doesn't last on the shelf as long, or, you know, but it's like, that stuff — the bread gets hard after a few days, but that stuff is clearly coming at a cost. Yeah, so I think that's a huge issue people face too, is they just think, well, I'm, you know, I'm just buying this thing, and it's not really just this thing, right? Like you're — you hear patients say, well, I eat whole wheat bread. Yeah, and I mean I don't think that they even understand that it's not, you know, again, I think it's the — it's the high fructose corn syrup they're adding to the bread, it's the preservatives, it's the — the artificial junk fortified with folic acid that our body — I even question, like, do these people who have non-celiac gluten intolerance, is it really the gluten?
Yeah, I mean, really the wheat — think about your patients who go to Europe and they come back and go — you hear this all the time, yeah. Tell — talk about what you hear people say, because I — I've heard that story. Everybody out there has either experienced it themselves, or they hear — they've heard it from a friend or family. Like, when I go to — I can eat all the — I eat all the pasta, you know, but when I'm home I feel terrible, or I can't. And you know, I mean, I think there's definitely good evidence to show that, you know, there are certain chemicals that the EU allows, and there's certain ones that they don't. I mean, I recently learned that there are several, um, you know, countries in the European Union who won't import certain, um, you know, products from our country, when — when it comes to, like, you know, grains, like wheat and such.
Um, I even learned recently that Mexico — Mexico won't even import corn from our country. Yeah, Mexico doesn't use any GMO corn, they don't spray. Live, you know, I mean, I also learned, like, to be fair, um, there are certain chemicals that do get used, I think, in the European Union, where the United States at least, like, puts a stop on some of that stuff. So, you know, it can go both ways, but I think the point is, is that a lot of people don't know that, they just don't know that. So it's not only maybe the — the type of wheat that we're using in the US, it may be the chemical residuals that are on that wheat, um, it could be the additives that we're throwing in there.
I mean, the way we're baking bread, I mean, you're — you're — you bake sourdough now, and it's been really fun watching you learn how to do that, but that's a completely different way of making bread, where you're air fermenting and keeping a culture going for sometimes for years. It's the original way of making bread — the original way of making bread. Mhm, yeah, I mean, I think — I think that is a struggle when patients go, you know, we — we often talk about, when you go to the grocery store, try to stay out of the aisles, you know, stay on the edge of the grocery store where there's fresh fresh fruit, there's the vegetables, the meat and the dairy.
But even there, I mean, you know, now we need to be educating our patients about, don't buy anything with this non-nutritive coating appeal, you know, cause we — we just don't know what does that do to human gut, we have no idea what the ingredients are. Um, we've been told that it's safe, but um, you know, there's a lot of things that we've been told safe that ought not to be. Um, and then I think there's also food groups that get demonized unfairly. I mean, I had a patient today, I was like, well, I sometimes eat red meat, and I was like, great, where's your meat come from?
Yeah, so talk about how — what are some of those challenges where people — people just have this idea that certain food groups are bad for them, and how do we help them overcome and really teach them about what — what food should be, what's the simplest way for someone to approach their diet if they don't know anything about what we're talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think if I just had to throw it into, like, one simple sentence, it would be to just try to focus on eating just real food, and it's mostly natural form, right, where it doesn't require a lot of modification, or even preparation or processing, right?
Um, you know, I certainly, one of the sometimes more common excuses I hear is, like, oh, but that's just, you know, like not exciting, you know, to just eat, like, a — you know, pick a piece of meat, pick a veggie, pick even a — right, assuming that we're operating on those principles of, like, has this been sprayed to death with chemicals or not, and you know, like, how was this grown, what went into it, what is all on it, right? So I think understanding that is helpful, um, and that's — it can be that simple. I mean, I bet you would agree, you know, in eating that way, you probably have had some really enjoyable meals of just focusing on that alone.
Yeah, I'll be honest, I mean, some of my — my favorite meals are — I mean, I've rarely opened a cookbook, it's, um, you know, barbecuing some meat, uh, grilling, you know, adding salt and pepper, um, we may throw some vegetables on a tray and roast them, and I do — I have really enjoyed getting — getting back to that simplistic, um, way of cooking and back to those basic nutrients. Yeah, but I think too, you know, you brought up a good point about, you know, these common food groups that get demonized, and you know, as a naturopathic doctor, a really common thing people want to come see us about is food sensitivity, and it's like, well, what about test — food sensitivity testing, and, like this — and it's like, to me, it certainly has its time and place, um, but again, you know, what I've just found time and time again, um, is that first of all, there's other things driving that permeability, immune reactivity issue with some of these foods.
Now you just threw out two big words there, tell me why. Yeah, sorry, uh, yeah, because I want people to understand — the food testing, back up and kind of talk about that, because we — we did a lot of food testing initially, I think you and I have learned, over — learned, sort of have — have modified our thinking on that. So talk about what — what are we really testing when we do food testing, um, why is that not a food allergy, and — and what's — what's really, you know, in our clinic we really try to drive towards what the root cause is.
Um, okay, so I think, you know, what's important to understand about food sensitivity testing is that there's a lot of different ones out there, and they're arguably trying to measure a certain type of immune response, right? So the one that we most commonly use, and even still use on occasion, we're measuring these, um, substances in our body called immunoglobulins, right, and we have these different types of immunoglobulin, so with, um, immunoglobulin E, IgE, for example, that's really what we're trying to use to, uh, assess, like, a true allergy, a true allergic — allergy, yeah, like where it's going to cause you to have hives, or a rash, or, like, anaphylaxis, like you're not breathing, your throat's closing, you know, more of what — again, we would constitute what we sometimes call a true allergy.
Well, and most people, they come in knowing that, right? Right, they test sometimes to, you know, confirm that for you. Um, but then when we look at, like, the immunoglobulin G and immunoglobulin A, those are the two other types that we test, um, you know, we know that immunoglobulin A is found in higher concentration in certain parts of the body, right? So, like, those mucosal type, so the lining of your gut, your sinuses, your bladders, even actually mucosal membrane. So I think, you know, that's where we can kind of start to differentiate a little bit, where it's like, okay, no, you're still having an immune system response, like, sometimes we can think of it too — I think, in like, what is your immune system trying to tolerate?
Because, and I think that's then where the permeability piece really comes in, right? Because you know, despite what maybe some people believe, you know, leaky gut, or sometimes we like to call it intestinal permeability, it's a real thing, right, it's well documented, um, one actually is all over the medical literature, but — but I still hear people say leaky gut's not a thing. Yeah, so I think, you know, once these substances pass through, or leak through, right, the membrane, um, your immune system is right there on the other side, right? I mean, as a matter of fact, most of our immune activity is in the gut, and so, and it makes sense — I mean, it's one of the largest membranes that we have, you know, exposing us to the outside world.
Yeah, so you want your immune system there to protect you. Well, people don't even think about that, our gut is still the ex — it's still exposed to the outside, your body — exactly. Um, and so — so yeah, so when these things, you know, and I think that's where, like, you mentioned earlier, like, kind of driving back to that root cause of, like, well, why is that happening? Yeah, I mean, there's a number of reasons that increase that intestinal permeability piece, right? I mean, the more common ones, I think we see in our clinical practice, would be high levels of stress, right? Right, so cortisol's doing a lot of that, for sure.
Um, but we see a lot of dysbiosis, which essentially means, you know, most everybody's familiar with the microbiome, it's all those trillions of microbes, like bacteria and yeast or fungus, and sometimes other microbes like viruses and parasites that are in that microbiome, um, that your immune system has to interact with too, and when there's a big time imbalance there, you know, that can cause loads of inflammation that leads to that permeability piece. So I think that's the key, right? Like, that's what we learned along the way, of, like, testing, identifying what the immune system was trying to tolerate with these so-called food sensitivities, right, where you can still have an immune response.
So when people are saying, um, hey, when I eat, I notice, when my kids eat this food they feel bad — that may not be an allergy, that could be that they're leaking that across into a — a place that's supposed to be a privileged immune space where foreign bodies aren't supposed to come. Yeah, and that when that leaks across, that doesn't necessarily just stay at the gut, right, so we have what we call, you know, teach people, these extraintestinal symptoms. So you can eat something and totally have a headache, or joint pain, it doesn't just mean, like, oh, I eat something and maybe I feel bloated or have diarrhea, right?
Yeah, um, so I think, you know, hopefully that gives people just a little more context of what we're really trying to assess for when we look at food sensitivity testing. Yeah, I think — I think that really helps people to understand, you know, because in the past, when I first started doing that testing, I would see, oh look, you're reacting to these foods, and we remove those foods, and people would feel better temporarily, so we felt like, oh, we're on the right path clinically, we're seeing an improvement, and then slowly you'd see regression in symptoms, and so you'd think, well, let's retest, and then you see a different variety of foods that they're reacting to.
And you know, the patients are like, well, that's everything I've switched to. And you know, and — and then, you — there were some schools that thought, well, we just need to rotate foods. Yeah, and — and it got to the point where, like, this is pretty tedious. Yeah, it's kind of, you're just stuck on a wheel. Yeah, and then, you know, I think the — the understanding improved, and we started learning about zonulin and Fasano's work at the Mucosal Immunology Lab, and understanding that leaky gut is really the thing that's driving all these immune reactions, has really been, I think, a profound change in — yeah — the way we approach patients and helping them understand what — what food sensitivities — but it's amazing, you can walk into Target and buy your own food sensitivity test now.
And do it — oh my gosh, you can buy them online. Um, but you know, I think here's another thing, early on in my practice with food sensitivity testing, where I saw it sometimes develop into a problem, is that, you know, it's like, what do you do with those people who are lit up like a Christmas tree? Yeah, what do they eat, what do they eat? So I think, you know, um, man, if there's a big lesson I learned along the way with that, is if you restrict too much, it's hard to heal. I mean, it's hard for your body to be in a healing type, or repair type state, if you don't have the tools to do it.
Um, and obviously, like, we've, you know, been talking about so far, nutrition is one of those, you know, just vital, absolutely necessary tools that we have to have, right? Um, so you know, I think it's one of our pillars, it's one of our pillars in our clinic, you know, we have the five pillars that we work on, in fact this month we're focusing on food. In clinic, in naturopathic medicine, it's — it's a huge determinant of health, right? Um, and you know, like, there's — I love the kind of quote where it's like, food can be your greatest form of medicine, mhm, or sometimes, you know, a big enemy, right, or a big — is, you know, big contributor to pain and suffering, to dysfunction.
Why do you think, on those food sensitivity tests, I don't know that we've ever talked about this, but in thinking back, in, you know, when we do these measurements, they're often divided up into vegetables, seeds, fruits, uh, nuts, um, and then meat — I meat sensitivities, or — or let's call them immune reactions to be precise, they're much less common. Yeah, why do you think that is, what — what is it about meat that — why, why don't we see more of these interactions? I mean, I think, you know, some of my initial thoughts would be, because what we — what we almost always tend to see is people are reacting to things that they eat frequently.
Okay, so maybe they're not eating enough meat in their — I was going to say, I think actually, despite what we're told, of, oh, Americans are eating too much meat, I actually think maybe they're really not, cause when we do dietary intakes, and we want to see how much protein, you know, a key building block, right, to so many things in the body, absolutely essential, um, how much of that are you taking in — a lot of times we find people are significantly deficient. Yeah, right, and what is your goal for protein intake with your patients?
You know, I mean, obviously, like with everything else, it's going to be super individualized, but you know, I think kind of a general rule of thumb, especially because we do these body composition DEXA scans in our office, that actually is a really accurate way to analyze somebody's lean muscle mass, um, I really kind of like this rule of thumb of, like, hey, at minimum, let's make sure you're getting at least one gram per pound of lean muscle mass, right, because even then you'll find, for a lot of people, that's probably even on the lower side of what they really need, but it's a more attainable, like, first step, to get them moving in that direction.
Well, and you often see cited that the USDA, or FDA, is require — or CDC is recommending, and sometimes half of that, but when you dive into the papers or the studies behind that, you find out that that has actually a threshold level, that underneath that you have signs of protein deficiency, right? So saying that, you know, being one gram above protein deficiency does not — is not sufficiency, right. Yeah, what are your feelings on the quality of protein, you know, if you're trying to get a gram per pound of lean body mass, how are you telling your patients to look for that high quality protein?
Well, I think this is really where I really have learned a lot, and love Don Layman's research, right — protein, I mean, I even, you know, listening to him talk, um, something that I feel like I even learned fairly recently from him is that our body doesn't assimilate all types of protein the same way. So, um, and I think this is a really important point, I make with my patients on this too, just because I might say that one form seems to be superior to another, it doesn't mean that lesser superior form is bad, right?
So — so I think, you know, if we look at the research from Don Layman, um, you know, he shows good evidence for that — animal-based protein, right, being much better assimilated, which means, right, absorbed and utilized by the body, compared to plant protein. Yeah, so percentage-wise, if I remember right, something around 97%, right, from an animal, versus anywhere from 40 to 60% from a plant. 60% I feel like, he said, at best — at best. So and do we think that's because the plant, it's a fiber that you and I can't digest, right? So that protein has to be hooked to some kind of backbone, so if it's hooked to that fiber, we might be able to digest some part of the protein, but we're not getting the full effect of protein.
Yeah, and we're not ruminant animals, right? I mean, that was the other amazing thing I learned, is that, you know, that's why a cow, a ruminant animal, right, meaning they have that four compartment stomach, can actually upcycle protein from arguably a plant protein source, right, because a cow wants to eat grass. Yeah, yeah, that — that was a crazy thing to learn, that they can, that they're actually — when you say upcycling, meaning they're eating a gram of protein in plant, but they're actually creating more protein, and — and arguably it would be their microbiome that's doing that, right, because you could even make the case that maybe cows don't even — cows aren't the ones eating the grass, they're — it's their gut, just full of microbes, uh, that are breaking down that.
That — I think that's the most important, like, you know, point with protein, is that when we're trying to help teach our patients how to optimize their protein intake, because it's so vital to — you right, the — so many things in the body, um, that selecting the, you know, more optimal type, yeah, and getting the biggest bang for your buck. Now does that mean I tell patients don't eat any plant protein? No, it's just, like — but you have to first of all, you have to know that, yeah, and then account for it when you're trying to be intentional about how much protein you're eating, right?
So it's like, you — if you're — if you're counting, and trying to reach this gram number, to, like, okay, this is what my body needs, I know that if I, you know, let's say I put a scoop of peanut butter in my protein smoothie shake that I'm making, I'm — you know, what the label says on that peanut butter nutrition is that, oh, one tablespoon is, you know, however many grams, six or so grams, I'm not assimilating that full six gram, you might be getting half, might be getting three, you know, right? So it's just, like, being aware of that, which, you know, not many people are.
I mean, I wasn't even totally aware of the plant difference between plant and animal. Yeah, so I think, you know, that's a big take-home, so yeah, to go kind of go back to your original question, of, like, why do we then rarely see people have these meat intolerances? You know, if people are buying meat, you know, mostly in an unprocessed form, maybe there's, you know, argument too that, like, okay, there's not something there with the food that's making it more allergenic, I don't know, but I mean, we certainly know that that industry also has its, you know, fair share of problems when it comes to producing, yes, um, meat.
Yeah, and I'd love to talk more about that, because I think something that maybe even a lot of your patients don't know, is that you and your husband have moved out of the city, you guys are now living, um, out on 20-plus acres. Yeah, out near Valley Center, we're naive city kids trying to be farmers. Yeah, it's been such — if people don't follow you on Instagram, they really need to, because it's been such a delight to see, uh, all the things that you guys are experiencing. So talk a little bit about, um, what you and your husband are trying to do, what are your goals with your own family's food, what are you learning about farming, um, talk a little bit about that — that journey so far.
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, I feel like, uh, just a key, like, integral part of our journey, um, in many ways, but when, especially when I think about food, right, because, um, with this land, we're using animals to, you know, make the land better, but also make the animal better, right? I mean, we're putting these grazing animals, you know, we have cows, sheep, goats, um, seasonally we have pigs, we have chickens, um, you know, those are at least the animals we have that we eat, yeah, on our land.
Um, and so, and I have to, of course, you know, give my husband credit, he does most of that amazing work, and I get to, you know, greatly benefit from that. But gosh, and some of our — even what I would, you know, consider obstacles at the time, in the last year, of just, you know, like, uh, things that have popped up unexpectedly, and we maybe had to harvest an animal in a different way, or sooner than what we had wanted to. Um, I mean, you know, it kind of goes back to what I said earlier, about when food is this incredibly important thing that we need to live, and how so many of us are stuck in a pattern of not giving it the respect and time that it deserves.
Living life this way has, like, just so deepened this appreciation for these animals, and the gift that they give us, um, and that, to me, you know, never in my life did I, like, I guess recognize — I think how important that is, to have that deep connection and appreciation for food, because think about that with anything else. I mean, if you have this deep appreciation and connection with it, you're going to nurture that, and you're going to make it important. Yeah, and that — does that, when you're, like, up close with that animal in that way, right? You know, and I know that's not for everybody, and I'm not — even though maybe, like, personally I would love to see everybody do that — I know that's not for everybody.
Well, yeah, I think, you know, um, when you talk about what — what is ideal and what is reasonable, I mean, yes, the ideal thing would be to raise an animal from birth, you know, to keep them on pasture all the way through, even to have a stress-free slaughter, to where that animal never got — had to see the inside of a stock trailer, wouldn't have to go to a — you know, to a feed, that animal even last moments of life is with its family. And then you're — you're getting this stress-free product that you really can't — but again, I mean, it would be great if we could all enjoy meat that way.
I think, you know, there — there may be a path to that. I think there is, I just don't think a lot of people, you know, want to hear that, or, like that, like I love how, you know, Will Harris of, uh, White Oak Pastures — I think, you know, um, I could listen to his — he's like so great, his accent so great, and he talks, like, so, like, slowly and intentionally, but you know, I just, you know, remember him saying that, look, we're not trying to feed the world, and I love that, cause that's so many of these, you know, bigger agricultural companies' argument, well, we can't feed the world doing that.
Yeah, they'll say, you — you can't raise cows on pasture, you got to process them in 385 days. Yeah, and I — I do love that, because people have said that, they're like, well, how are you going to feed the world that way, and his — his response is, I'm just trying to feed my community. Right, well, and not to be — not to be cruel, but I mean, if you look — look at America, I mean, yes, some people unfortunately do go hungry and go without food, but we have an obesity epidemic. Yeah, we've — we've definitely gone the other way, I mean, the pendulum has swung to the point where, calorie — finding calories isn't the problem, it's not hard, um, it's really finding the nutrition, right?
Yeah, I do — I do dream of a day that, you know, you know, for instance, if someone — someone wanted to buy meat that you've processed on your own land, unfortunately, right now there's — there's no path for that, the government doesn't allow it. Yeah, you'd have to get creative, you'd have to get very creative, to try to figure out how to do that. Um, but I do think it's something that, you know, we've talked about, right, these boulders in our clinic of, like, seemingly immovable objects that we just work on over time. And I think that one of trying to make food a more local phenomenon is such an important one.
I mean, even teaching people to have backyard chickens, I mean, in the city of Wichita, you can have what, five chickens, as long as you don't have any roosters. Really, I was going to say, I think then Wichita, at least, I think the main rule is you just can't have a rooster in — but in order to have eggs, you don't have to have a rooster, exactly, they'll lay on their own. Um, you know, now some argue they lay better with a rooster, but that's okay, you don't have to have one, right? Um, but even if you're, like, hey, animals just aren't my thing, there are so many local people, like me, who are doing this, that have enough to sell.
Well, shout out to Brian Alexander, Red Hills Rancher, he — he has a saying, he says, shake the hand that feeds you, you know, get to know your farmer, find out where your food comes from. Yeah, I would — I would love if we got back to a place, cause I think even, you know, two or three generations ago, the majority of your food would come within 5 or 10 miles of where you live, and now our food doesn't come within 500 miles of where we live, in many cases. You know, we're — I think it was Will Harris, or it might have been Joel Salatin, who was sharing that, you know, we — we will take chickens raised in the United States, ship them over to China to be processed, put on a styrofoam tray, wrapped in cellophane, and shipped back, and it's like, that doesn't make any sense.
No, um, but somebody probably figured out the economics of it and said, we can save three cents per pound or whatever, and then that's the way it is. Um, and that's a lot of times, I — I mean, that's a big obstacle for people too, right, and not just in food, in lots of areas of life, right, convenience. It's — yeah, the one of my favorite quotes on convenience, is that we've sacrificed our health on the altar of convenience, you know, and people do it, I think oftentimes unknowingly, they just — they're trying to keep up, they're trying to do all the things.
Um, and I, you know, I just see that as a really common obstacle in the clinic, when people are struggling with their health. Yeah, it's like, oh, your body's not getting the nutrition it needs. And well, I think one way, you know, connecting people to farmers, who — who are raising animals differently, who are trying to keep the antibiotics, the hormones, and I know most times, if you have a sick animal, you got to treat it, but it's not the default standard. You know, I mean, again, Brian Alexander was sharing, like, when they — when they take these animals off of the trailers at feed lots, they sort them into a high-risk and a low-risk animal, high-risk gets this combo of medications, low risk gets this combo, there's no — no risk animal on those feed lots, they're all getting something, they're all getting something.
Um, but you know, that — that obstacle, I mean, I think there's very easy steps you can take, like, I think one of the biggest ones is, buy a large freezer, right, a deep freeze, where you can buy your meat in bulk from a farmer, you can buy a quarter cow. Well, and then we were talking about, you know, economics, that's much more economically affordable for people when you buy it like that. Um, you know, but I also think too, I mean, gosh, when I think about my own family budget, you know, the second highest line item on our budget is food.
Yeah, um, and you think we should look at food as not a cost center, but really an investment. 100%, right, because we none of us think twice about throwing money in our 401K, putting in our — in our kids' education fund, because we know that that's going to bear interest over time, and we'll get out more than we do — shouldn't food be seen the same way, that I'm not spending money on food, I'm investing in my own health? Yes, because if you spend that money upfront, you really are — I mean, think of the savings you have on the back end of, now you're not paying all, you know, the ridiculous cost of medication.
Definitely, at least, you know, the argument would be, you're setting yourself up to have the best chance to have some of the lowest healthcare costs. Exactly, right, I mean, obviously nothing makes us bulletproof, right? Um, but oh my gosh, huge investment, and that's, you know, that's — that's a big reason why we budget that way. Yeah, um, so and it's — I mean, it is still possible, I think maybe even this is where, um, you know, thinking about, like, well, you know, I was saying, like, you know, I know everybody, animals aren't for everybody, raising animals aren't for everybody, it's like, you know, everybody does, or at least should have a budget, right, we're all, you know, limited to a certain extent as to what that looks like.
But um, you know, I'm — I'm certainly, I'm not going to tell somebody, well, don't eat vegetables if you can't buy organic, or don't eat vegetables if you can't buy it from a farmer, right? You know, I mean, sure, I would love to spend time with that person and teach them how to grow their own food, because that's actually really economical, right? Um, but you know, again, maybe not for everybody. Um, but — but like I was saying, I think, okay, you can still go to the grocery store and make the best choice that you can.
Yeah, right, or you know, think about herbs, like herbs are something that are really easy to grow indoors on a windowsill, so cheap, and you look at, like, what fresh herbs cost, to come in these plastic containers, like four or five bucks for, you know, a couple sprigs of rosemary, that stuff grows like weeds in the garden. Oh my gosh, you could buy — you could grow, like, six huge bushels of it at that cost, you know? Well, and so I mean, and you have — you have two girls, your — them about, um, you're going to be probably teaching them how to for food, you still go to the grocer, it's not like you're completely self-sufficient.
Take my girls with me to the grocery store. So talk about some of the things you do when you go shopping, where does Dr. Marvin go shopping, what are you looking for, how are you doing it to stay on a budget, because I think right now everybody's struggling with the high cost of everything, right? So, you know, while gas is going up, food's going up, rent is going up for a lot of people, um, what are — what are some ways that you can — that people can take, take away from this podcast the next day, and say, I can start making some healthier choices, what are some of those tips that you have employed in your own family?
Well, I think you can really do it, arguably, at any kind of store, I mean, I can certainly share the stores where I'll go find things, like, I mean, I will say I think we spend most of our, um, grocery dollars, if we're shopping like at a store like that, probably at Costco, just because, um, they do have a decent selection of organic produce or organic products, where you can buy it in bulk. Um, and and you know, I'm — we're only a family of four, and my girls are young, I mean, they're six and three.
Um, and so, um, you know, it doesn't have to be Costco, but it can be really any grocery store. And why, when you talk about organic, are there some foods where you say, hey, maybe don't need to buy this organic? I mean, why — why are some things you really want to push your patients or clients towards organic, and other places where we might say, some things are pretty obvious, right, especially, um, you know, some of these common foods that people like to — more processed common foods that people like to consume — that there is evidence that we have, like, high glyphosate residual on, right, and glyphosate has very clearly been linked to a whole host of — you can measure you, yeah, I mean, like, serious stuff, right, it's not just like, oh, I get a stomachache from glyphosate, it's like, oh no, I could actually develop a tumor, right?
You know, so, um, so staying away from some of the pesticides, herbicides, that — look, I know, I know that there are pesticides, herbicides in the organic industry, right? Right, so I'm not saying that the organic industry is a perfect angel either. Um, but again, when you're trying to be a consumer in a store, it's a good place to start if you can, and that's where I find that at a place like Costco, you can — I mean, you can get a massive bag of organic broccoli for $6, versus a tiny little head, maybe at some other stores, it's going to be more expensive.
So go home and freeze that, whatever you're — freeze it, you know. Um, but I think too, what people will probably realize is that if they buy that real food and just simply incorporate it into their meals, like, for example, last night at our house we made burgers, mmm, with actually the beef from your cow. Oh good, um, and you know, I mean, and we didn't even get the grill out, I mean, we just used the cast iron skillet in the house, um, you know, those in the family that wanted a bun, we used sourdough that I made, right, and it wasn't even a sourdough bun, it was just sliced sourdough, it's the same thing, right?
Right, um, and instead of, like, oh, now I've got to come up with a side, I literally just make a veggie tray, yeah, you know, I make my own dip, I make my own dressings, I make stuff like that to serve with it, but you don't have to, right? But you know, we just basically, my veggie tray is I just cut up a bunch of carrots, broccoli, maybe I buy, maybe I bought sugar snap peas, or whatever, or maybe whatever is growing in the garden, any veggie that's inexpensive, and you serve it alongside of it, and that was dinner, and we were all fed, we were all happy, and we all felt good.
That's great, you know what I mean, so that's how simple it can be, that's the majority of the meals we eat in our house. Yeah, so, so when you're choosing organic foods, are there things like, um, oranges and bananas we don't necessarily need to get organic for, that has a thick skin, or is that changing? Is — I mean, I did recently, with bananas, um, and also I will, I mean, at Costco you can get a three pound bunch of organic bananas for two bucks. Okay, so, so, um, but I did, you know, I read an article recently talking about Costco as a sponsor.
Yeah, I know, Costco can sponsor me, that'd be great. Um, no, uh, that, you know, these, you know, and this is, I think, where you do kind of, like you mentioned earlier, you get into this tricky situation, um, of, like, bananas don't grow around here, right, and so it's coming from far away. Yeah, and one of the costs of that is, like, a banana that arguably needs to ripen just right for most people to want to consume it, they're using chemicals for stuff like that. So even though you're not eating the peel — good point — you know, so I think again, I'm not trying to, like, fearmonger, or, like, make people just now worry about their bananas, right, but I — but I also think too, it's like, when you're informed, you can make decisions.
And I think another thing that people don't realize is that you are voting every time you buy something at the store. Oh, 100%, if we don't demand better products from these companies, right, they're going to keep giving junk, what best fits their bottom line. Yeah, you know, and their shareholders, it's not about what's best for you and me. That is so true, if we — we could change the foods that we have in our grocery store by just changing what we buy, and if more people would — if people would stop buying the packaged cereals, that, you know, are — again, you can measure glyphosate in a box of Cheerios, that — and that's when it's gone through an oven, and oats aren't even a glyphosate, that's not even a modified organism.
That should be — maybe this is — maybe this is one of the ways too that I find that I can, you know, try to connect with people, my patients, when I talk about this, because, you know, I can be understanding a little bit that, um, you know, it — it doesn't really work anymore to talk to people about, hey, you should eat this way because it's good for you, right, or because it's healthy, it's like, most people generally understand that, right? Um, and so sometimes I find by talking about maybe some of the injustices, like, this actually works really well in kids, there's even some research in, like, kind of that teen group.
I love your approach when you do this with kids. Yeah, it's like that, the research really shows that, I mean, especially teens, right, it's like when I was — I mean, when I was a teenager, mortality was like, what's that? Yeah, you're not interested in offsetting diabetes or dementia later in life, you're — you're there to rebel. Yes, like, what do you mean, I'm invincible, right? Yeah, and so what they've even found, through research, like, this — there's research in this that shows, like, the way that you can really help young people understand this, is by talking about the injustices, and that's a way to connect.
Yeah, and so, and you know, there's arguably other ways to get people to connect to how important this is, right, but that can be a big one, or — or even showing them, hey, this is how these large food corporations are trying to target your eyeballs, by using cartoon characters, flashy colors, you know, they're really wanting you to get sucked into this — this sale, and once you've taught a kid to recognize that, they see it for what it is, like, hey. Well, and it's not, you know, the scary part is that marketing is definitely one big thing, but you know, if you check out Michael Moss's book, "Salt Sugar Fat," that investigative journalism piece on the industry, actually hiring scientists to manipulate food to make it hit your receptors just right, yeah, to make it addictive.
Yeah, is it — it's the concept is the vanishing caloric density, where you can eat, like, a cheese puff, and you can just eat and eat and eat, and your brain just never registers — that's why are there these certain foods that, after you've arguably sat down to a full meal, that you can still — you can always find room for. Yeah, right, I think that's — and so again, it's like, gosh, when you teach people the injustice of that system, of, like, these people don't care about your well-being, they care about your money.
Yeah, and so you know, I — you know, I think there's definitely another industry, we don't have to get into, you know, the healthcare industry or the insurance industry, where it's like, that kind of stuff, it makes me angry, like, I don't want to give those people my money, and we — you do that when you shop for food at the store. Yeah, so you know, it's something to think about, and like I said, sometimes it helps people resonate or connect a little bit more. Yeah, um, well, and I think we also try to educate our patients about, you know, trying not to buy food that's, you know, in plastics, and yeah, you know, I — I've seen you literally jump across our break room kitchen and almost strangle somebody who's about to microwave in plastic, so there's things even around our food that we could probably — you care about them, but I probably could, like, tone my response a little bit.
Instead of, it's microwave-safe plastic, you would say, no, heating any kind of plastic, even, even if you're not heating your food up in plastic, it's like, if you're putting hot food onto plastic, right, so this is where, you know, fast food, when you're getting fast, and it's going onto these wrappers, that can — and you, the reason these things have these chemicals, it's so that the juices and the liquids don't leach out all over everything. Yeah, a lot of people don't know, but the Starbucks cup that's made of cardboard is lined in plastic, actually makes the cup so they can't recycle it, and so that's a hot liquid most of the time.
So, so avoiding plastic where we can, yeah, which I — I understand it's almost impossible. Well, yeah, I mean, if you — if you tried to say, I'm not going to eat any food that has touched plastic, I mean, even when we processed our cow, like, the only option was to, you know, we use plastic wrap, um, right. You know, I think we're — we're starting to find that people are, uh, doing biopsies of human fat and actually seeing that there's microplastics in humans now. Um, and of course, I think there's — there's this push to remove plastic from our food supply, but unfortunately I think the push is in the wrong area.
I was at a — a grocery store in Colorado, and I get to the front, and the checkout, and I — I said, they said, do you have a bag, and I go, no, I'll just take a plastic one, and they go, we can't give you a plastic bag, and I looked on the conveyor belt, and I'm like, the apples are in plastic, the grapes are in plastic, the steak is covered in plastic, and I'm like, what — what, if you're really trying to reduce plastic, I mean, we need to change more than just the plastic bag we carry it out in.
Yeah, yeah, I think another important piece, you know, when I want to, like, encourage and talk to families, especially parents with young kids, yeah, it's so hard, right, it's a struggle. I mean, you know, we homeschool our children, and it's something that, you know, we intentionally choose for many different reasons, and I understand, again, that's not for everybody, exactly. Um, and so, you know, one obstacle with kids is, like, you know, well but, like, the food at school, and school lunch, yeah, but I really think it's like, you know, one of our probably, if not the most important job as a parent, right, is to teach your child, you are their teacher.
Well, it's the best inheritance you can give them, is the sense of understanding a healthy relationship with food, how to prepare their own food. You know, if you — I mean, they don't need the school lunch, right, you could make more food at dinner, package it in a glass container, send them, even if they do eat the school lunch, it's like, let's teach them, you know, let's teach them what, you know, all these things, right, of, like, the benefits of food, and what food is, and you know, how food also makes you feel, don't go to the vending machine, teach them, teach them to learn those connections for themselves.
Right, so that they develop that confidence and self trust, that they can make those decisions on their own. And are they going to get it perfect? No. Do we get it perfect as adults? No, no, but I think, you know, that's how to try to create and teach this like healthy relationship, so that's what we do with our kids. We're just constantly, you know, well, I not constantly, but like any meal time, or you know, when we have, when we go to birthday parties, it's like, yes, my kids eat the cake and ice cream, right, but you better believe that if they're complaining about a symptom or something later on, you're going to tie it back, we're going to potentially teach and make connections so that they can learn that, right.
And you know, same thing, like I mentioned earlier, of, like, again, I am a parent of a six and three year old, yes, um, they are not perfect, behaved little angels when I take them out into public, right, but I take them out into public, because how else will they learn to be a functioning adult in society if they don't get to experience that? So, and yes, we have had screaming, kicking on the floor meltdowns in public. Um, I'll never forget once at Walmart, around the self checkout, and of course, you know, the god-awful things they have at the self checkout, right, or just a checkout in general, right, and I want this, and no, sorry, we're not getting that, and the loudest scream, all of Walmart gets quiet.
Oh man, and so it's like, but that's life, like, let's — let's — let's experience life and get through and learn how to navigate the hard stuff. Yeah, because otherwise, we're not — we're just not teaching our kids how to then do this, like, nutrition, like, how to eat well, right? You know, well, so what, you know, we — we always talk about, what are the things we can take away, yeah, the — what are the some of the things that you want your patients, when they come in and they just feel like, oh my gosh, I'm overwhelmed, I've got to go raise a cow, I'm going to be milking my own goat, uh, I've got to grow my own — you know.
That is, I mean, I had a patient today who just was like, that's just not going to happen. I was like, okay, well, here's some simple steps, what are some very simple things that people can do when they first come, and they have not heard any of this, that they can go away, and they can say, you know, we don't want them to go home and just throw out everything in their pantry, what are some simple things that you want people to start doing to apply these principles? Yeah, I mean, I think just going back to that concept of, like, just keep it simple, it does not — we do not need to be making these elaborate meals, you know, um, keep the ingredients simple, like, like I said, I mean, we had just chopped fresh, fresh veg as a side to our burgers last night, like, I had to make baked beans and potato salad and chips, and you know, stuff like that.
And so it's like, just look at stuff as, like, you know, cause I bet everybody has stuff in their pantry at home already, where it's like, can I eat some protein, is there a vegetable here, like, and just keep it simple, to where, like I said, even like last night, we didn't even have to cook the side, literally just served it, you know, and even in today's world, you can buy those things already chopped up for you, even, so it's like, okay, well, when you're shopping, choose the things that, if you feel like that, you know, chopping vegetables is overwhelming for you, right, well, buy it already chopped, so then you just literally pull it out and put it out, you know what I mean?
So, um, I, you know, again, I — I could get into what would technically be some probably more elaborate things, but I think if you're just like you said earlier, you know, shop the perimeter, right, um, don't buy — I love how you say, often in the clinic, you're like, don't buy it if it comes in a box, or a bag, or a, you know, or a drive-through window, right, box, bag, can, over the counter, through a window. Yeah, and then the other one we talk about is, if there's more than five ingredients on the label, we tell people it might not be food, right?
Right, or like, can you even pronounce the word on the label, do you even know what it is, like, you should recognize, recognize those things, and if those are ingredients that you're — you look at the ingredients, and you're like, I don't even know what that ingredient is, or you don't have that ingredient at home, like, guar gum, how many people have guar gum in their — in their pantry right now, there's tons of stuff that's filled with guar gum, and carrageenan, and it's like, I don't even know where carrageenan comes from. I think it's — or like pasta, I mean, even if we go back to some of these, like, commonly demonized food, pasta, dairy, you know, oh my gosh, I could get into dairy, um, but like pasta, for example, we eat spaghetti at our house, I'll make spaghetti, I, you know, at least right now I don't make my own pasta, maybe one day I will, because I just love to make — that's my artistic outlet, is what I prepare and make in the kitchen.
But for the overwhelming majority of us, you're going to buy pasta that's already made, you're going to have something like spaghetti, but what a lot of people don't realize is that if you go to the store, like, Dillons, like the typical grocery store, like in Wichita would be Dillons, right, um, and you look at this wall of pasta products, yeah, and if you start looking at labels, it's not just flour, right, it's flour and these fortified synthetic junky vitamins, like folic acid, and you know, things like that, where there's some evidence where that causes some harm for people, um, and potentially other preservatives, and it's like, no, when you buy something like pasta, it should just say 100%, ideally organic semolina wheat, for example, that should be the only thing on the ingredient label, and you're like, oh, I can spell that, I can pronounce it, and I know what it is, yeah.
Right, um, even with pasta sauces, it's like, you know, yes, we can talk about how you can make it yourself, but you look at the label, and it's got sugar and high fructose corn syrup and all kinds of junk in it, look for one that's just tomatoes, spices, vinegar, you know, stuff like that, again, just keep it simple, just keep it simple, keep it simple. Well, and I think sometimes people do get to the point where they feel crippled about their food choices, like you mentioned, these patients who their entire panel shows they're reacting to everything, and I think we have to be careful with those, because we — we can create this, almost an anxiety around food, a deficit, yep, deficiencies, and then, like we said earlier, it's almost impossible to heal, uh, when your body's in a, you know, state like that.
Yeah, yeah, and I think, you know, one thing, here's another thing I'll just throw out there, because I think, you know, especially parents of young kids, um, you know, it's like, but kids want snacks, mhm, um, you know, do kids need a snack every two hours, is that — no, no, well, I'll — I'll, you know, I can be a very literal person, as my husband will attest, um, but you know, when you say snack, you imply, like, a certain type of food, right, and you know, and of course, when kids say snack, they imply a certain type of food — bar, yeah, I want a packaged little container of little, you know, Cheez-Its, or goldfish, or gummy bears, fruit snacks, fruit snacks, right, um, you know, and no, kids don't need that.
And I even — I mean, I was in a place, you know, over the past few years with kids, where I would — I would seek out these arguably, like, organic, maybe, you know, in my mind justify, like, a minimally processed type of a healthy snack, and I just realized it was a huge obstacle for my kids to eating, like, the real food that we would be trying to serve more at meal time, and so I just gradually phased it out, and of course, you know, you get complaints here and there, but again, that's okay, like, our job as parents is to teach our kids to steer them in the right direction. You can eat these things, so if my kids are eating a snack at home, you know, they're grabbing string cheese, the veggies, a slice of cheese, an apple, you know, or a slice of salami, a glass of milk, you know, milk or dairy, that's the other, you know, demonized group, right?
Yeah, and where it's like, you know, we, of course, you know, drink raw milk, and you know, again, you're still alive, and we're still alive, we haven't died of, you know, some horrible intestinal infection or anything. Um, but you know, again, even just with, like, the concept of raw milk, which we could do, like, an entire podcast on, by the way, just on itself, but it still goes back to that, it's in its unprocessed form, right? Right, yeah, it's simple, simple, yeah, simple. Well, and I think yeah, we could spend a lot of time on milk, and maybe — maybe we should have, um, some of our dairy farmers on the podcast to talk about it.
Follow, yeah, I think that would be really cool. Yeah, yeah, I — you know, with kids, it's — it's tough, I mean, one of the things I think, you know, I — I've heard parents say that they'll — they'll designate a drawer in their refrigerator for snack food, and — and what they do is they put in some of those simple, you know, snack meats, um, little tiny carrots, which is so funny, I learned that those little tiny carrots are actually big carrots that were too ugly to sell, and they just throw them in a machine that shaves off the veggies, and then they sell them for more than the fancy carrots were.
Um, but you know, they — they — they just, their kids just know, like, oh, I get to go get a snack, and they open up the drawer, and they're — and you know, they're grabbing, you know, even if it's like an organic applesauce, that's going to be most — we technically still have a drawer in our house, but that drawer, like, it's — it's not a refrigerator drawer, cause we just have the food that we have in our fridge, but in our drawer, you know, there's — right now there's a bag of pistachios, yeah, and there's some beef sticks in there, you know, so it's like that, you know, can somebody could still argue, maybe that's still kind of somewhat of a snack, but it's, uh, it's like real food, yeah, simple real unprocessed food.
Yeah, so, um, so we've talked about how to teach kids to eat healthy, um, food intolerances, what are some other things that you feel like are important to share with our patients when it comes to food, uh, the other challenges that you know, um, maybe you know, we treat a lot of autoimmune disease in the clinic, what are some things that you try, how do you try to help those patients? Yeah, yeah, I mean, honestly, I know that's a huge — that's a big — yeah, we could go a lot of directions with that, but if I'm just, you know, if I'm just thinking about more of the nutritional aspect, um, you know, it kind of ties into even what we were talking a little bit earlier about the immune system, and like the food sensitivities, right?
Yeah, it's like, what we're — what we're identifying with these tests is, like, what your immune system is trying to tolerate, right, or respond to. Yeah, and that's, you know, a key component with autoimmunity, right? I think, you know, one of the beautiful things about the way that we practice medicine, is really, at the end of the day, trying to teach our patients, like, here's what your body's really trying to say, right, and actually, you know, a big theme in my practice at least right now, is because I understandably get people who come in and they're just so frustrated, and they're suffering from symptoms that they have, and um, they're like, why is my body doing this to me?
And it's like, what I try to teach them is that, you know, your body only has these ways to communicate with you, you can't communicate the way you and I sit here and talk to each other, right? Right, so your body's on your team, this is your body's only way to try to tell you, like, something's wrong, and I need your help, right? And so, you know, adaptive responses that our body has, I think autoimmunity is that to a T, right, it's like, you know, some people take that approach of, like, oh, my immune system is attacking me, but oftentimes what we find is that the immune system is just appropriately responding to something, doing what it was designed to do, yes.
And so when we go back to then, like, these things that are added to foods, chemicals, preservatives, foreign artificial substances, your immune system is like, what's that, what's this, right, especially if you've got that abnormal permeability, yes, the leaky gut, yes, 100%. So, um, while I would say, like, if we think about a therapeutic diet like AIP, or autoimmune paleo, that's certainly one that I think has a time and a place, and you know, if you think about the core concepts of that dietary strategy, it's really taking it back to simplicity, sure, right, cause arguably trying to avoid those things that are foreign, right, and that your immune system is like, hey, we have to try to get your attention, because this shouldn't be here.
Yeah, and then try to help that, you know, gut piece be less permeable, and of course, when you think about the foods that you emphasize in AIP, they're all very nutritionally dense foods, yeah, so while some still view it as a very restrictive diet, it's a very nourishing diet when you do it correctly, right. Right, yeah, I think, I see, is not necessarily, I mean, I know there's a lot of restrictions on AIP, but I also see that the AIP diet is really about just learning different — a different way of eating, and you know, and I think, um, you know, a lot of people kind of latch onto these fad diets, that we've seen a movie, we have, you know, patients who are vegan, we have patients who are vegetarian, you know, I think we had one patient who came in, was a fruitarian, is that right?
Yeah, and um, carnivore, we've got patients doing carnivore, we've got paleo, we've got keto, so you know, which is the right diet, yeah, right, I mean, we hear that a lot, what — what — what's the diet, we — which fad should I be following? I think we got to get away from fads, we just got to — I mean, again, we're — we tend to overcomplicate things, yeah, right, we put these rules on things, we — and that's where, I, my — again, the way my brain works is just kind of like, well, we don't have to do it that way, yeah, back up, back up, like, what, again, like, what does the body really need, right?
And yes, I know that all those, you know, they don't — we don't, I don't even have to call them fad diets, but all those diets, I know there's lots of people out there that do some of those, and they thrive on it, and that's great, that's great, but where I think we get into trouble is when we then paint with a broad brush, and think that, oh well, if these people did great, then everybody should do great on it. Well, yeah, like somebody who has leaky gut, if they did the carnivore diet, you know, again, that's one, the food sensitivities are pretty low, so it's not going to challenge their immune system as much, maybe there's, you know, more glutamine in that diet, so they're getting more healing in the gut, but that doesn't mean that they can't eventually reintroduce some of those foods.
I mean, so therapeutically carnivore may be really effective for resetting things that have gone wrong, right, what I think unfortunately some of these fad diets you've even done for people, is they — they question themselves, right, because they're like, well, I, you know, it's like when I eat this way, I really don't feel good, yeah, but so many people do so well on it, right, and we destroy this, like, self trust and confidence that people need to have, the individualism. So, I mean, so sometimes I'm just like, yes, these things exist, yes, maybe there's even good argument for trying them, but I try to get people away from this, like, hard and fast rule.
Just because low FODMAP diet, for example, makes, PE, a lot of people who have small intestine bacterial overgrowth, their symptoms go away, doesn't mean that that's — does it fix the problem? Yeah, it doesn't fix the problem, or doesn't — might actually be masking what the root cause — that, so really trying to get back to, like, helping people learn to develop that, you know, intuition and self trust, right, of, like, what works for me as an individual. Yeah, and I think, and I really do believe that the foundation for that can be simple real food, yeah, right.
Well, and I think you brought an important component of that too, is also recognizing how your body's communicating with you, learn to be, you know, uh, more intuitive with your eating, and understanding, you know, it could be the stress, it could be the lack of sleep that you're getting, could be the fact that you're not exercising, could be the fact that your elimination is not working, you know, you're only having a bowel movement once a week, it's going to be pretty tough to focus on your diet when you're not actually — you don't have the elimination down, right?
Um, right, so yeah, I think that's, um, I think there's a lot, what — what I love about the functional medicine mindset, and the naturopathic mindset of approaching these problems, is that we have a really large, uh, toolbox of things we can use, um, and it is, every individual is their own individual, I mean, it's — it's, there's no protocol that — that was going to work for everybody, right? Um, right, and so it really is getting — getting to know that person, taking that individualized approach, understanding what their issues are, helping them come up with a plan that's going to work for them, because what might work for them is not going to work for somebody else — else, exactly, yeah, so that individual approach, and keeping it simple.
Yep, I think is really important, yeah, yeah, um, well gosh, we've been talking now for a long time, I, yeah, I think we went over an hour already, um, so one of the things you know we're going to be doing, this podcast more, I'm sure this won't be the last time we talk about food, um, and I want to encourage our patients to share these podcasts with people, um, we have the newsletter that we're now sending out, so I, if any patients feel like that might be helpful for somebody else they know, send that to your friends and family, uh, follow Dr. Marvin on Instagram, do you know your tag on Instagram?
Yes, it's Dr. Marvin ND, and there are some like underscores, it's like _Marvin_ND, okay. Yeah, and there's some amazing content on little farm, sometimes a little naturopathic medicine sprinkled in, but if I'm being honest, I have more fun posting about the farm. It's been fun to watch what you guys are doing, and shout out to Tim, your husband, I think he does an amazing job, he's jumped in with both feet, he's learning stuff at a blistering pace, it feels like, and um, it's been, it's been really fun to watch you guys, thank you, uh, and to watch your girls thrive in that environment has been really, really cool, a lot of fun, it's a lot of fun.
Well good, so um, thank you very much for being on the second, uh, episode of the PHW podcast, and um, we're looking forward to having many, many more conversations with you. Awesome, thanks. Conversations with you, awesome, thanks.